What's the purpose of the search engines? or the tutorial sites (guide)?
If you memorized HTML tags, what's your advantage to those who do not?
Is the markup language really necessary to be explored before you do web applications?
It's like saying, you need to memorize the "C
Think again.
First, what we did in the session was not memorization. We showed each other how the tags worked. I don't recall asking anyone to memorize. ;)
ReplyDeleteNow, you might not have realized this but your advantage in exploring how HTML forms work (as opposed to just memorizing it) is that you can show the client that you don't need to Google the syntax of the table tag to know how to use it. If you were the client, would you pay for the services of a developer who has to open the reference manual every five seconds because he doesn't know basic syntax? (Oh yeah, the client knows the abilities of devs because all the entrance tests - .NET, Loop, Database, etc. are scanned and sent to them).
You don't need to memorize everything but you at least need to master the _basics_ of a language. If that weren't true, then you would have failed the loop test. You knew how to use the for loop, input and output statements and do variable assignments. You didn't have to look those up with a search engine did you?
Also, asking you to get to know a few HTML tags is nowhere near the complexity of memorizing the C libraries. That's an unfair comparison.
I hope you are not intentionally misinterpreting the things being taught to you because if you are, then you're being rude and disrespectful.
Hi JT,
ReplyDeleteBefore all, this is not about the session we had.
Yes, you didn't asked us to memorize these things but I'll give you these thoughts:
If you want someone to learn to repair an automobile, you need an automobile to repair.
If you want to teach someone to cook, you put them in a kitchen.
Whoever heard of teaching someone to swim in a traditional classroom?
So as far as I see it, studying these stuff without actually applying it is just memorizing. It's like you know the road signs and the car components, but can you drive now?
In our industry, experience is a great teacher; it's what we call "Learning by doing".
And concluding, this is not being disrespectful to you as you teach, as this has been made and posted before we make the session.
Okay, I understand now that you did not mean disrespect when you posted this and that the post was not about our session. I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
ReplyDelete* * *
I totally agree with you on "Learning by doing." That is exactly why I told you guys to go to W3Schools and why I sent you the code examples.
First, w3schools allows you to learn by doing with its "Try it yourself" built in editor.
Second, when I sent you guys the sample files from the session, one of the instructions I gave was to tear them apart, modify them and put them back together again (see my email message for reference).
Third, during the training session, I had you guys literally type in the code and see what happens right after. That is not the same as teaching someone to swim in a traditional (water free) classrom. In our case, during our training session, we had a _real_ pool where you guys could (and did) get your feet wet.
* * *
Based on what has been said here, I'm beginning to think that the live code in w3schools, in my examples and during the training session are not enough, even if they do promote learning by doing.
Perhaps you guys need an additional opportunity to apply what you have learned. Right now, I'm thinking of assigning a simple individual project (one that requires only an hour or two per week). That should give you valuable experience; if it does not, then I don't know what will. I'll discuss it with MiRa and see what happens from there.
* * *
Take care, man.
Peace.
*sings* nang matuto ang baliw yaman ay pinagyabang...
ReplyDelete*DISCLAIMER*
This is my fucking opinion only. In the end its still your boss who will decide.
To JT: The problem is they're not taking you seriously. Who would? If you want them to respect you then lead by example. If you just want them to obey you then grab them by their balls and their heads will follow. Seriously I think you're going the ErPa path.
To PR: Be at least grateful that JT is exerting effort to teach you guys the basics.
In our time we have no choice but to learn it on our own. Its up to you if you want to be spoon fed or you want to supplement what is being taught by learning on your own. Have they told you what needs to be done in order to get out of the "Trainee" stage? If so then you know what to do.
IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY
Once upon a time, there was a non-conforming sparrow that decided not to fly south for the winter.
However, soon the weather turned so cold that he reluctantly started to fly south. In a short time, ice began to form on his wings and he fell to earth in a farmyard, almost frozen. A cow passed by and crapped on the little sparrow. The sparrow thought it was the end, but the manure warmed him and defrosted his wings. Warm and happy, able to breathe, he started to sing. Just then a large cat came by, and hearing the chirping, investigated the sounds.
The cat cleared away the manure, found the chirping bird, and promptly ate him!
The moral of the story:
1. Everyone who shits on you is not necessarily your enemy.
2. Everyone who gets you out of the shit is not necessarily your friend.
3. And, if you're warm and happy in a pile of shit, keep your mouth shut!
The story of the Bull and the Pheasant
A pheasant was standing in a field chatting with a bull.
"I would love to be able to get to the top of yonder tree', sighed the pheasant, 'but I haven't got the energy'.
'Well, why don't you nibble on some of my droppings?' replied the bull. 'They're packed with nutrients'.
The pheasant pecked at a lump of dung and found that it actually gave him enough strength to reach the first branch of the tree. The next day, after eating some more dung, he reached the second branch. And so on. Finally, after a fourth night, there he was proudly perched at the top of the tree. Whereupon he was spotted by a farmer who dashed into the farmhouse, emerged with a shotgun, and shot the pheasant right out of the tree.
Moral of the story:
Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there.
@Sam:
ReplyDeleteThat was fucking hilarious but it gets the point across. :)
If you are up to the task, maybe you can give me something more specific on "leading by example." What should I do?
Currently, this is what I am doing:
At the end of every presentation, I show them live, working code samples. In the HTML session, I asked them to type in the tags for the form so that they'll see what happens when they do something. In the XHTML session, we validated the code examples in the previous lesson with the w3c validator and fixed every error found until it came out perfect. For the next presentation, I'll show (and have them try out) working code samples for CSS then have them do 2 problems on their workstations.
As far as I can see, I'm not going down the ErPa path. I don't spend every minute of my life in a meeting. Unlike him, I'm actually making contributions to the company - aside from giving _real_ training (which ErPa never fucking did), I've been tasked to work with InfoPath (which involves .NET programming), do research with the OnTime API and see if it's possible to relate Test Cases there to Test Complete, write SoRs and F(x) Designs for projects, plus I have a shitload more coming my way.
So again, can tell me what you mean when you say "leading by example?" What should I be doing? I really would like to know.
@JT
ReplyDeleteLike what I said in my disclaimer.. its my opinion and it will be up to your boss to decide.
Let me ask you. When your child is ready for school. Would you not want your child to be taught by the best teacher on the best school you can afford?
If you are a soldier, would you prefer to be trained by someone who has little combat experience or by someone who already has expertise in the field?
If WP wants to produce quality devs. Trainees should be trained by persons who excel in those fields.. Not all trainees will end up as a web developer and afaik web development is pretty much dead. WP is now concentrating on ODC services. I'll stress again "its up to the boss to decide"
Going down the ErPa path. Like what happened to ErPa. You are not being taken seriously by your peers. I did not say you are becoming like ErPa. No need to enumerate what you're doing, I know you're a super busy guy. MiRa makes sure you'll always have something to do. :)
"Lead by example" is also different from "teach by example" so are you leading or are you teaching?
What should you be doing? You could start by earning their respect I guess..
How you do it is up to you.
Nice rhetoric.
ReplyDelete"Let me ask you. When your child is ready for school. Would you not want your child to be taught by the best teacher on the best school you can afford?
If you are a soldier, would you prefer to be trained by someone who has little combat experience or by someone who already has expertise in the field?"
Naturally, I want my child to be taught by the best teacher I can afford. What I can take away from this is that WorldPartner should have the TD Trainees taught by the best teachers. If we can take time from techlead (You, Jeric and Allan Andersen) or if we can bring in outside experts who are the best that WP can afford, then why not? I never claimed to be the best and I'm willing to step aside if others are willing to step up - that's what I've told the TD Trainees since day one (if you can do a better job than me at teaching, then I'll give you the floor). :)
"If WP wants to produce quality devs. Trainees should be trained by persons who excel in those fields.. Not all trainees will end up as a web developer and afaik web development is pretty much dead. WP is now concentrating on ODC services. I'll stress again "its up to the boss to decide"
The first part of this paragraph, I already addressed. Now, the TD Trainee curriculum does not cover only basic Web Development (i.e. XHTML and CSS), it also deals with Web Applications (made with JavaScript, jQuery and ASP .NET) and Windows Applications (Made with C# and the .NET Framework). ScalePoint
, as far as I know, is pretty heavy into Web Appplications (ASP .NET and Java), PCSYS has web applications in development, Software Inventions\SprintForce is purely web apps. Without XHTML and CSS, the guys responsible for web apps in SP, PCSYS and SI won't be able to do their jobs - how can you make the front-end\fix errors in the code that generates the UI without knowledge of those aforementioned languages?
"Going down the ErPa path. Like what happened to ErPa. You are not being taken seriously by your peers. I did not say you are becoming like ErPa. No need to enumerate what you're doing, I know you're a super busy guy. MiRa makes sure you'll always have something to do. :)"
ErPa did only two things - get estimates and hold meetings. He wasn't taken seriously because he didn't add a lot of value. Also, our bosses always make sure that we have something to do - they wouldn't hire us (or in the case of ErPa and the others who were laid off, they would not keep us for very long) if we have nothing of value to give. :)
"Lead by example" is also different from "teach by example" so are you leading or are you teaching?
What should you be doing? You could start by earning their respect I guess..
How you do it is up to you."
You cannot lead without teaching. So "leading by example" to me is the same as "teaching by example." Here's why: A good leader practices what he preaches. If he wants his people to come in to the office early, then he should learn to come in early. By coming in early himself, he is _teaching_ them to come in early.
If I don't pay you any respect, can you do anything about it? No. I believe that nobody can make anybody do anything without their consent. So, I can't really "earn their respect," as you suggested. It's not like if I do this and this and this, I get to earn their respect; it does not work that way. Maybe _I_ need to change myself BUT _they_ also need to open their minds. ;)
What I can do is to continually improve myself. If the changes I make are not enough (or if they will never be enough) to earn me their respect, then tough luck, but at least I know that I am doing my best and I think that's what matters.
Awww crap.. I should have given you instructions on how to interpret what I said.
ReplyDeleteYou should interpret this as a group.
"Let me ask you. When your child is ready for school. Would you not want your child to be taught by the best teacher on the best school you can afford?
If you are a soldier, would you prefer to be trained by someone who has little combat experience or by someone who already has expertise in the field?
If WP wants to produce quality devs. Trainees should be trained by persons who excel in those fields.. Not all trainees will end up as a web developer and afaik web development is pretty much dead. WP is now concentrating on ODC services. I'll stress again "its up to the boss to decide""
Like what I said to PR: he should be thankful that you are teaching them the basics. Don't interpret this as an issue against you. maybe you have not read "IT'S UP TO THE BOSS TO DECIDE"
"Going down the ErPa path. Like what happened to ErPa. You are not being taken seriously by your peers."
Peers - http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/peer look it up.
I think ErPa would still be here if nobody has the balls stand up against him. Don't compare ErPa to others who got laid off.
"You cannot lead without teaching. So "leading by example" to me is the same as "teaching by example." Here's why: A good leader practices what he preaches. If he wants his people to come in to the office early, then he should learn to come in early. By coming in early himself, he is _teaching_ them to come in early."
You're right.. so start to be one. :p
Right now you're in that "leader position" to the TD's so you should also behave and act like one because you are serving as an example to them.
Now ask your self.. Does your behaviour reflect what you preach?
"If I don't pay you any respect, can you do anything about it? No. I believe that nobody can make anybody do anything without their consent. So, I can't really "earn their respect," as you suggested. It's not like if I do this and this and this, I get to earn their respect; it does not work that way. Maybe _I_ need to change myself BUT _they_ also need to open their minds. ;)"
Yes you can and yes I can.. take Me and MM for example.. I don't like the guy at first but he eventually earned my respect. In order to open up their minds. You should also open yours..
"I believe that nobody can make anybody do anything without their consent."
Yes there exists such entities.. the Budol budol and the rapists for example.. but they still don't earn respect :p
There are also people who use other persons name to harass other person. Without the other person's consent. ang gulo ano?
*Note* I hate blogspot.. this is my revised reply.. the original was supposed to be in Tagalog.. but blogspot timed out..
Sam, it was your session that timed out not blogspot =))
ReplyDeleteI guess I should be the one who must end this feud.
Both of your comments are getting farther and farther from what my post is about. This is not about the training nor of the teaching, this is how I see studying a language.
To clarify things out, what I mean by my post is that I am not into the syntax of the language, I am into the semantics.
@JT: If you study a language by its syntax to understand the semantics, then good, at least you learned the language from the basics, but remember that it's your way of learning, not all have similar practices.
As for me, I try to understand the flow and construction of the logic first before getting into the coding. I know a lot who's practicing the other way, but to tell you honestly, they are struggling to make their own programs. They may be great in the objective parts, but they don't give a stand in applying those.
I guess that's why I quit studying Symbian, because I just simply don't like studying the syntax (especially Symbian's strict rules even for the naming convention) before getting the actual logic of the program or how the language works.
@Sam: Indeed, I am grateful for the company's generosity. I am also thankful that JT's doing some efforts. But let's admit it that people have their own learning habits, and it is very much my attitude to be rebellious when restrained; becoming unproductive and bothered.
And JT, by the way, as you mentioned above, that if this is about the session we had I don't give a damn respect? You may want to check on your quotes first, "No pretensions, no *s*h*l*s". Wouldn't it be a value of "True" for it? (No answers needed.)
======================================
Questions / suggestions will not be entertained.
Part 1
ReplyDelete"Like what I said to PR: he should be thankful that you are teaching them the basics. Don't interpret this as an issue against you. maybe you have not read "IT'S UP TO THE BOSS TO DECIDE"
I read that "It's up to the bosses to decide." but then you have been implying certain things and I could not just let those pass because the implications affect me.
"I think ErPa would still be here if nobody has the balls stand up against him. Don't compare ErPa to others who got laid off."
If MiRa did not get hired, ErPa, without a doubt, would still be here. I was not comparing him to others who got laid off. I just included him as part of the set of people whom _I_ think got laid off because they weren't giving much value. Also, do me a favor and stop comparing me to him.
"You're right.. so start to be one. :p
Right now you're in that "leader position" to the TD's so you should also behave and act like one because you are serving as an example to them.
Now ask your self.. Does your behaviour reflect what you preach?"
Do I come in early? Yes.
Do I listen to other people? Yes.
Do I give way to the demands of the WITS team, as long as they are reasonable? Yes.
Do I value other peoples opinions? Yes.
Do I prepare for my training sessions? Yes.
Do I let the TD Trainees actively contribute to the discussion? Yes. (All of them have contributed something and I haven't rejected any of it; I never claim to know everything and I am able to put my ego aside)
Do I strive to finish everything in my personal sprint? Yes.
Am I genuinely concerned about the welfare of my teammates? Ask the WITS team about this. I always tell people not to get themselves burned out, I grab food (on Fridays) and bring it to those who have not left their desks because they've been working, I try to help solve their problems even if it isn't my job to do so.
Am I perfect? No, I still get easily angered a lot but I have managed to control it better than I used to. I also have a really short attention span (unless I am very interested in the subject).
So, yes, I would like to think that my behavior reflects what I preach. I come early, I listen, I compromise, I value other peoples opinions, I prepare for my training sessions, I let the TD trainees contribute, I try to finish everything in my sprint and I love my teammates in WITS .
Shifting the focus to you: Are you perfect? No. Does *everyone* think highly of you? No. Why? Because you CANNOT please everybody. That's a reality.
If one or two of the TD Trainees are displeased by what I'm trying to do (which is to train them), then tough luck, they're stuck with Mr. Imperfect for as long as I'm given that responsibility.
"Yes you can and yes I can.. take Me and MM for example.. I don't like the guy at first but he eventually earned my respect. In order to open up their minds. You should also open yours.."
I doubt that any of what he did was for the purpose of earning _your_respect. What happened, and, to use your words, this is just my fucking opinion, is that HL, because of his constant supervision, was able to make him focus and produce results. HL succeeded where all of his previous project managers failed. I am open minded; I wouldn't be reading this and responding to it if I weren't.
"Yes there exists such entities.. the Budol budol and the rapists for example.. but they still don't earn respect :p"
Analyze what I said: "I believe that nobody can make anybody do anything without their consent."
A rape victim does not have sex with a rapist with consent. The rapist may be having sex with the victim but he\she is NOT giving his\her consent, so he\she isn't really doing anything with his\her consent.
Part 2
ReplyDelete"There are also people who use other persons name to harass other person. Without the other person's consent. ang gulo ano?"
You're implying something. If you think that I have done this, then please answer these questions:
Whose name am I using to harass the other person?
Who is the other person?
How am I using the name as a means to harass the other person?
***
Seriously, Sam, what are you trying to prove with all that you're saying?
In your first post, you were discouraging me from continuing to train them (yes, that is implied when you say that you want the best to train your child and I'm obviously not the best). You ended with the line "Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there." That implies that I've been relying on bullshit. Finally, you keep comparing me with ErPa. What the fuck is up with that? What have I done to deserve all this from you?
If you're affected by it then it must be true. :p
ReplyDeleteYou asked me what you should do on lead by example. I gave a suggestion and you seem to rudely and disrespectfully cast it aside.
Where in my first post did I say that you should stop teaching? You're maliciously interpreting what I'm posting.
"If WP wants to produce quality devs. Trainees should be trained by persons who excel in those fields.. Not all trainees will end up as a web developer and afaik web development is pretty much dead. WP is now concentrating on ODC services. I'll stress again "its up to the boss to decide""
Right now I have taken Philip as my trainee. ErSa is now also doing technology transfer to ElRo. And I hope the others would follow.
JT there is nothing against you here. Unless you don't want the TD's to grow into Juniors. You were positioned there to give them the basics and I acknowledge that.. but how long are we gonna keep the trainees as trainees? years? This is not college anymore.. Even if they are trainees, they are getting paid and the sooner they get to junior level the more productive they will become else HL might think this is not a good idea. I have been pushing this idea to HL to have trainees since 1998. HL only acknowledge this when MiRa also brought it up.
On what you have enumerated. Those changes seems to be recent. It was I who requested that you get transferred to the WITS area because you are not positively influencing some members of the xsplit for the sake of getting HL to reconsider his plan of axing one of your close friends there. I also asked HL that he or Mira talked to you on changing your habits to fit your current position.
I think that most of those you have enumerated are recent changes.
"I doubt that any of what he did was for the purpose of earning _your_respect. What happened, and, to use your words, this is just my fucking opinion, is that HL, because of his constant supervision, was able to make him focus and produce results. HL succeeded where all of his previous project managers failed. I am open minded; I wouldn't be reading this and responding to it if I weren't."
Yes HL succeeded.. wanna know the story behind it? I'll tell it to you personally. I'll also tell you the names you want to know.
Did I say you're like erpa? Hell NO.. I said I THINK you're going the erpa path.. I'm not comparing you to ErPa.. Just because 2 people walks the same street does not mean that they are the same.
"What have I done to deserve all this from you?"
1. Everyone who shits on you is not necessarily your enemy.
"Shifting the focus to you: Are you perfect? No. Does *everyone* think highly of you? No. Why? Because you CANNOT please everybody. That's a reality." --I'm not trying to please everybody.. neither should you. I did not claim that I'm perfect.. but at least I know that I what I'm saying is being taken seriously.. even my posts here are being taken seriously :p And that's what counts..
"Bullshit might get you to the top, but it won't keep you there" -- You're not yet at the top. I think no Pinoys will be. Go eat some humble pie you prick.
Truth hurts?
I know this is none of my business but I'm a Psych graduate; and I can't help but notice that JT is too defensive for his own good.
ReplyDeleteHe's like rationalizing and giving justifications on everything which may or may not be an attack on him - it may be called the SPOTLIGHT EFFECT!
Maybe JT should consider the reasons behind the comments which he thinks are an attack to him because, allow me to quote Sam, "if you're affected by it then it must be true". Then, try to improve himself instead of arguing with each and every point.
I have the strangest feeling that my comment will also be argued with. Haha. Peace!
PS: Wouldn't life be a lot better if people focused on finding solutions instead of exploring every detail of the problem?
ReplyDelete:)